Black Hat wrote:Speaking as someone who hasn't watched this thing yet (no Netflix, been too busy watching other stuff, etc) but knows enough about it to determine it's probably not for me, I'm beginning to wonder if half the problem is the very most basic premise of "What if G1 was DARK and GRITTY!?!".
"Remaking" G1 seems oddly pointless. Whilst far from perfect- very, very far- it was still relatively entertaining. I'd even argue a large part of what made it fun was how silly it was; putting aside the questionable animation, this is the series where as but one example, Blaster gets kidnapped by a giant pair of hands emerging from a billboard. And this wasn't a toned-down adaptation of an existing story- this was what Transformers was.
That's not to say every TF series has to be this daft, but if your aim is "Higher quality G1 cartoon" then trying to make it gritty and grimdark is kind of missing the point; because if you want to make G1 a serious war story, you have to change so much stuff that it's not really G1 anymore. That wouldn't be a problem if the aim was just to make an original TF series that has a darker tone, but when the whole thing is pitched as a G1 remake with G1 characters, you start to run into problems.
I also feel like the attempt to make everything dark and serious is itself kind of a mistake, and poorly executed. "Dark and gritty reboots" are 10 a penny and most of them are terrible, and "mature = dark" series in general are just kind of overdone at this point. Plus, the way they're done, with everything being predictably dull and washed out, is just tiresome and extremely uncreative.
If you want an example of a dark series done well (and totally not just because I rewatched it recently and have it as my avatar), Puella Magi Madoka Magica combines the trappings and aesthetics of a cute, happy series with an impeccably executed tragic story, and at times reaches soul-crushing depths of despair, capped off with an absolutely beautiful bittersweet ending. Yes, it's incredibly dark, but it isn't completely dripping with attempts at grittiness and everything being dull and grey. The characters are adorable, there are moments of levity, the world itself is meticulously designed (SHAFT's architectural skills really should be applauded), and in general there is a perfect balance of lighthearted moments with heartwrenching tragedy.
So where am I going with all this? Simply put- the approach to making this series was completely wrong. If they wanted to make a grim, dark story, they should have distanced themselves further from G1 to give themselves more room for creativity. There's plenty of "original" TF series, and one more wouldn't have hurt; heck, some of the best TF media has been unrelated to G1 (*COUGH* Animated *COUGH*). And if they wanted to tell a G1 story, they really should have made it a lot more lighthearted, just because Sunbow G1 and "serious war story" do not mix very well. And there's nothing wrong with having a story that isn't just nonstop hurr durr grimdark- The Bumblebee movie was pretty lighthearted on the whole and that was superb.
TLDR: G1 was not a dark and gritty series, and treating it as such is a one way ticket to failtown on the disappointment express.
I'd also argue that the choice in creative talent was probably not the best, but that's a spiel for another time, and I also feel that even with the greatest talent in the world, the series' premise doomed it from the beginning.
Anecdotes are all I can provide here but several of the things that bother us aren't an issue to more casual viewers. I don't need to see the end of the war and Optimus and Bumblebee working together to send away the Allspark, that's been done over and over and over and over since 2007. A casual viewer got that maybe twice in the same time period. The voice acting is stiff to us in places but compared to some English anime dubs it's pitch perfect - and an anime fan with a passing interest in Transformers is one of the markets this is aimed at, why else would they call it anime when anime ja nai? I have pals and coworkers that watched it and thought it was fun. That said, no one, myself included, puts this thing up on any high pedestal but it's not the trainwreck one might expect from skimming these posts.Seibertron wrote:ScottyP wrote:Also, I don't think WfC was for us. I think it was for the casual Netflix viewer that probably watched the movies and maybe TF Prime but not much else.
They'd get more people interested in Transformers and sell more toys and merchandise if they quit making cartoons and comics that aren't great because of acting, writing, directing, etc. The general audience arent a bunch of idiots. They know good entertainment when they see it just like we do, though maybe I'm misunderstanding what you wrote.
D-Maximal_Primal wrote:
2) Ryan, I hear your criticisms of Cyberverse, but you, much like others in the past couple of months, seemed to have formed the opinion around Season 1 entirely. Season 1 is almost like that first time out prequel movie that came before the actual main events. Season 2 and especially Season 3 are very good.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
aronjlove wrote:sol magnus wrote:Deadput wrote:Ultra Magnus plays a big part in post 1986 type stuff (cartoon and comics alike) so his importance doesn't even tend to exist prior to Earth stuff most of the time, although he is the most important character out of these 3 overall but he was a big part of this show and is implied to have been important to the war and being trusted along with Optimus by Alpha Trion, all things considered he got it pretty good here.
I agree. Obviously, I'd like it better if he didn't die, but they did him justice with the death he got.
And without Magnus dying Bumblebee would never have joined the Autobots.
I'm glad we got a Bumblebee who could talk and wasn't sucking up to Prime. Although I did find it strange that he sold Energon for coins(?), like, what else does a bot need to purchase other than Energon...
Edit: added spoiler tag
He kept using the same voice, his natural voice btw, because that's what all the people who kept hiring him wanted him to use.Delicon wrote:While I loved him as Optimus Primal, Garry is the last one who should be calling anything "low energy" after using the same basic voice for so many characters for decades.
It should also be noted that he was in the same position years ago when he did new versions of GI Joe and He-Man/MOTU and that fans had the same criticisms then.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
returnofplex wrote:I have to agree. For all of the effort put into this new show, some of the voices just take you out of it. It was very obviously a G1-centric production, so why did half of the voices fit and the others didn't? Whomever it was that did Prime's voice; They sounded like your friend who THINKS they do a good Prime impersonation. The cadence was way off.
jON3.0 wrote:The timing was already set when I recorded. Lines had to be done the way I did them to fit. I did the absolute best job I possible could as I was instructed to do in the job I was hired for and tried my hardest to do them as Peter would do them himself within the time constrictions I was working with.
ZeroWolf wrote:Though it is funny to think of this as a reverse tmnt in a way as the original tmnt comic was the complete opposite of the main thing its known for...the Cartoon
ScottyP wrote: The marketing hype led you to believe this was G1 redone like never before. It's not and was never meant to be G1, the amount of money that would require isn't practical anymore.
D-Maximal_Primal wrote:-Hot Rod - the kid who is trying to lead this Resistance and trying to figure it all out, the struggles of growing as a leader, he has a higher pitch to him, with more excitement you would expect from someone younger.
blackeyedprime wrote:Will be weird if they don't get Garry Chalk for WFC kingdom but would he actually turn it down if he isn't impressed with what he has seen so far? Paychecks often talk more than credibility, eg Cullen.
I think we can expect Primal to not be voiced by Chalk. Not only did they cast Ron Perlman to play him in POTP, but now with them going non-union and recording everything in New York, I can't see them reaching out to Chalk all the way over in Vancouver.william-james88 wrote:blackeyedprime wrote:Will be weird if they don't get Garry Chalk for WFC kingdom but would he actually turn it down if he isn't impressed with what he has seen so far? Paychecks often talk more than credibility, eg Cullen.
Oh man, I had not thought of that and yet I wrote all these articles. Primal without Chalk would be rough for me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Yeah, that's Netflix's fault. They're the ones calling it an anime when it isn't. They're doing so purely for marketing reasons to try to get people to think that it's not for kids.ZeroWolf wrote:Still dont agree with it being labelled anime. Call it an Eastern style if you wish but its a cartoon. On simple terms, if this is an anime so is the original sunbow toon.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, that's Netflix's fault. They're the ones calling it an anime when it isn't. They're doing so purely for marketing reasons to try to get people to think that it's not for kids.ZeroWolf wrote:Still dont agree with it being labelled anime. Call it an Eastern style if you wish but its a cartoon. On simple terms, if this is an anime so is the original sunbow toon.
And yet, despite all the warfare, turmoil, violence, death, destruction, and two instances of cussing, do you guys know what the official content rating is for this show? TV-Y7. That's right, according to rating, this grim and bleak war series is designed for elementary school kids.
Sabrblade wrote: Garry Chalk, meanwhile, is still in Vancouver and has primarily done projects produced in Vancouver, both animated and live action (such as Arrow, for instance).
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, that's Netflix's fault. They're the ones calling it an anime when it isn't. They're doing so purely for marketing reasons to try to get people to think that it's not for kids.ZeroWolf wrote:Still dont agree with it being labelled anime. Call it an Eastern style if you wish but its a cartoon. On simple terms, if this is an anime so is the original sunbow toon.
And yet, despite all the warfare, turmoil, violence, death, destruction, and two instances of cussing, do you guys know what the official content rating is for this show? TV-Y7. That's right, according to rating, this grim and bleak war series is designed for elementary school kids.
Yeah, but Hollywood films are a different beast from TV/web/streaming cartoons.william-james88 wrote:Sabrblade wrote: Garry Chalk, meanwhile, is still in Vancouver and has primarily done projects produced in Vancouver, both animated and live action (such as Arrow, for instance).
Garry Chalk seems worldly enough, in terms of his hollywood clout. We mention his big roles, but he's been in last year's Sonic film, and the 2014 Godzilla. He's a steady actor. I know I am setting myself up for dissapointment if I still hold out some hope but I'd be dissapointed regardless, even if there was no hope of him voicing him.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Jeddostotle7 wrote:william-james88 wrote:Jeddostotle7 wrote:I have yet to watch this series, but from what everyone's saying, it sounds to me like Jake still has yet to really find that spark that takes his Optimus voice to greatness. His Peter Cullen impression is pretty good, but often even in his better performances it can still come off as... a little wooden/overly stoic? I don't think it's Jake's fault so much, I just think most of the voice direction he's gotten has likely encouraged him to lean into the Peter Cullen impression at the cost of actually adding that extra dimension to the character Peter usually had and/or making it his own. Jake will definitely get there someday, no doubt in my mind, but for now I'm just frustrated with his Optimus voice not reaching its potential.
Jake was way better in Cyberverse than in this. So I think Ryan's guess that the problem is more on the voice director's end is on point.
Also speaking of Optimus, I too, like D-Max, found it hard to root for him as the hero. He didn't at all feel like the character I associate Optimus with. Felt more like IDW Barber's Prime or the more recent relaunched IDW Prime which I really do not like. He just didn't feel like the one to lead or someone I would get behind and go into battle with. I got more of the Optimus Prime I can root for in the 5 minutes of him in the BB movie than in the 2.5 hours of this show.
Oh no, I agree, the actual problems with the voice acting are almost certainly the fault of the voice director. We have seen many of these VAs do better in Cyberverse, I'm not trying to speak negatively about the abilities of this stable of VAs. My point about Optimus was not directly related to that, and even there I point the finger for my disappointment in Jake's Optimus voice at voice directors. I agree he was better in Cyberverse than what I've heard of his performance in the Netflix trailers, I was just expressing that I've been disappointed with Jake's Optimus voice even there. I don't think it's Jake's fault, I just think he's got great potential that he's not reaching, again probably the voice directors' fault: they probably want him to focus on his Peter Cullen impression to the exclusion of adding much depth to the voice and/or making it his own.
Deadput wrote:The best they have gotten to work on stuff recently is Rooster Teeth who aren't even that big overall, but even then it doesn't really count since RT wasn't that involved, they didn't do the animation, majority of the VO (they got one or two RT people to do VO, Miles Luna and I think someone else), story writing, etc. Just some parts of production.
Sabrblade wrote:I think some people here are misunderstanding something when it comes to this show's voice cast. This show does not use the Cyberverse voice actors. Rather, it only uses Jake Foushee as the voice of Optimus. Literally no other voice actor in this WFCT cartoon besides him was in Cyberverse.
sol magnus wrote:The comments I've been seeing on other pop culture sites and my own Facebook feed suggest that some of us are really out of touch with what 'regular' people expect out of this show. I'm seeing a lot more praise and barely any serious criticism of the show overall, with most comments being something along the lines of "I loved it, can't wait for the next part."
Go figure.
sol magnus wrote:The comments I've been seeing on other pop culture sites and my own Facebook feed suggest that some of us are really out of touch with what 'regular' people expect out of this show. I'm seeing a lot more praise and barely any serious criticism of the show overall, with most comments being something along the lines of "I loved it, can't wait for the next part."
Go figure.
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