Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Skritz]

Sure, but who wants to be strapped to the OUTSIDE of a jet when its going Mach 2? If I were a little dude who turned in to a gun, I’d rather be in the COCKPIT than picking insect icons out of my grille.

This.

Also, even in a more-or-less Quintesson free context like G1 Marvel or IDW, I figured they had passenger compartments simply because Cybertronians come in a wide variety of sizes, including human-sized. In alternate mode, Sky-Lynx can carry Jetfire, Jetfire can carry Optimus Prime, Optimus Prime can carry Bumblebee, and Bumblebee could carry a *Master. The catch is, there aren't very many bots small enough to get behind Bumblebee's wheel. My assumption as to why there are so few bots smaller than minibot size has always been rather grim, and some of the details in IDW's Functionist Universe seem to support my assumption in that regard.

I also suspect that, in settings where they can upgrade to bigger and strong bodies most would. You'll notice that the peace-time setting of Animated is swarming in mini-bot sized Bumblebee-like body types. Not a whole lot of reasons to be a colossal lug unless you're doing physical labor. Seems to me like smaller Cybertronians is a peace-time thing which would make sense.

Or, you know, we're all just overthinking it too hard.

Bah, that's not overthinking! Overthinking is when you realize that - even without considering alternate modes - the designs of Transformers are so diverse in terms of size, weight, dexterity, mobility, etc., that making antebellum Cybertron's public spaces accessible would have pushed its civil engineers to their limits.

Hah!

But, see, little did we know that a total lack of any logical infrastructure was the main cause of social and economic pressures that eventually devolved into the Great War!

[Emerje]

In other words, they see through their windshields.

Some more than others.



I guess the definition of rip-off depends on who you are. For me more is better and I think Shockwave looks fantastic in every form, especially now that we've seen his Voyager alt mode. And to think, this is probably not far off how Shockwave Prime would have looked, just with an opening chest window.

And what's wrong with Energon Bulkhead, one of the best figures to come out of Energon?



Everything about that makes me happy. Sure, his integration isn't as well done as Landmine (or Tow-line for that matter), but I liked him enough to also get Quickstrike. Exo-armor just works for me as something giant war machines would have.

Anyway, as Siege goes, I'm probably going to swap Ultra Magnus' missiles even if they will restrict articulation, they just don't look right sticking up over his shoulders.

I hope we see one of the Race Car Patrol guys retooled into Hot Rod for a future Star Convoy. Maybe use Road Handler so he can double as a gun.

The front of Shockwave's alt mode (whatever you want to call it) transforms the same way as MP Shockwave. What does annoy me about the little head on top of the tower is if you flip him over he can't stand on his own.

We're probably lucky that Skytread didn't turn out to be a Weaponizer when you look at him standing next to Cog.



Seriously? It's been over 30 years, how does the photographer not know where to put Megatron's canon?

Emerje

[Cyberpath]

In the series they are generally depicted as larger in vehicle modes, and so they can give fellow bots (even of comparable or larger size) a ride.

⠀

[Jelze Bunnycat]

btw As it turns out, between Hasbro and TakaraTomy the toys may be the same, the names are not: Micromaster Bigshot has been named Top Shot for Japan, while Flask managed to retain his original G1 name Flak.

[Sabrblade]

In the series they are generally depicted as larger in vehicle modes, and so they can give fellow bots (even of comparable or larger size) a ride.

Only when the plot demanded it, otherwise we'd get cases like these:






And cases like Cosmos saying that, despite his size-changed altmode's interior being able to house Perceptor, Seaspray, and Bumblebee, Optimus Prime himself was too big to fit inside, in "Sea Change".

[firefox91]

Flywheels is perfect! He was always one of my favorite G1 figures, this is a must have. I'll probably jump on Megatron, Shockwave, Sideswipe, and several of the smaller bots too. There are some passes, but overall a solid lineup.

[Cyberpath]

In the series they are generally depicted as larger in vehicle modes, and so they can give fellow bots (even of comparable or larger size) a ride.

Only when the plot demanded it, otherwise we'd get cases like these:






And cases like Cosmos saying that, despite his size-changed altmode's interior being able to house Perceptor, Seaspray, and Bumblebee, Optimus Prime himself was too big to fit inside, in "Sea Change".

And?

[Sabrblade]

And?

Meaning that they weren't "generally" depicted as larger in vehicle modes. Only sometimes, when the plot called for it.

[starrhero]

In the series they are generally depicted as larger in vehicle modes, and so they can give fellow bots (even of comparable or larger size) a ride.

Only when the plot demanded it, otherwise we'd get cases like these:






And cases like Cosmos saying that, despite his size-changed altmode's interior being able to house Perceptor, Seaspray, and Bumblebee, Optimus Prime himself was too big to fit inside, in "Sea Change".

And?

AND NOTHING!!!



And after all this discussion of why Cybertronians need cockpits & driver's seat, as well as the idea of how much their war would of affected their economy & government, I want to calculate how much a real Cybertronain war would cost & how it would affect normal Cybertronian life. Because if it's anything like Siege & the G1 cartoon make it out to be, even when the war ends, there'd be no winners.

[Cyberpath]

And?

Meaning that they weren't "generally" depicted as larger in vehicle modes. Only sometimes, when the plot called for it.

Generally is usually, not always. Not sure what's the problem here.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

... No mention of the G1 S3 plot point that Transformers were originally created as nothing more than merchandise?

[First-Aid]

Sure, but who wants to be strapped to the OUTSIDE of a jet when its going Mach 2? If I were a little dude who turned in to a gun, I’d rather be in the COCKPIT than picking insect icons out of my grille.

This.

Also, even in a more-or-less Quintesson free context like G1 Marvel or IDW, I figured they had passenger compartments simply because Cybertronians come in a wide variety of sizes, including human-sized. In alternate mode, Sky-Lynx can carry Jetfire, Jetfire can carry Optimus Prime, Optimus Prime can carry Bumblebee, and Bumblebee could carry a *Master. The catch is, there aren't very many bots small enough to get behind Bumblebee's wheel. My assumption as to why there are so few bots smaller than minibot size has always been rather grim, and some of the details in IDW's Functionist Universe seem to support my assumption in that regard.

I also suspect that, in settings where they can upgrade to bigger and strong bodies most would. You'll notice that the peace-time setting of Animated is swarming in mini-bot sized Bumblebee-like body types. Not a whole lot of reasons to be a colossal lug unless you're doing physical labor. Seems to me like smaller Cybertronians is a peace-time thing which would make sense.

Or, you know, we're all just overthinking it too hard.

Bah, that's not overthinking! Overthinking is when you realize that - even without considering alternate modes - the designs of Transformers are so diverse in terms of size, weight, dexterity, mobility, etc., that making antebellum Cybertron's public spaces accessible would have pushed its civil engineers to their limits.

Ah, but this is not necessarily "strapped on". We're talking about nanoscopic level connections of an fictional alloy stronger than any on Earth, and more than just sticking a post in a hole. It would likely go beyond welding, and would require special circuitry connections as well so the little dude could be controlled or aimed by internal mechanisms from the bigger dude.

Or we are overthinking it.

Screw it...DEBATE ON!

[Skritz]

... No mention of the G1 S3 plot point that Transformers were originally created as nothing more than merchandise?

No, because in the end the mythological/magical 'Primus did it' origin won out in popularity in the mind of fans, writers and fans-who-became-writers.

[The_Cryptid_Person]

Shockwave's colors looked way lighter in the promotional renders. Look at the difference between his hand and his wrist, that has to be more than weird lighting. Unfortunately for me, it seems like the toy-accurate grape-soda purple from the show floor is being used for the final product. I was hoping they would go with a shade closer to the renders, a lighter purple than the toy but not pastel like MP Shocky. Also of note, the renders show him with a smaller backpack than most the pictures here. More partsforming?

VS

I was 100% down for the new version before these pics came out - guess I should have seen it coming, as other Wave 1 reveals (megatron, flywheels, blowpipe) were fully-molded-and-colored production samples. Ah well, there's always spraypaint, or if I'm cheap, my old Beast Hunters version.

[Skritz]

Ah well maybe it will look better in person? Hopefully?

[Wolfman Jake]

Personally I’m already sold on what I’ve seen from most of this line. While some of the battle damage may be a little too heavy for my tastes on some of the figures, I think the concept itself makes for a nice change of pace.

The war-worn paint apps are really hit and miss for me. They look very effective in the CG renderings and even on the hand-painted models shown off at some of the trade shows. However, when seeing them on the "finalized" actual retail products, they're very underwhelming. Instead of looking like scratches in paint and wear in metal, it comes off more like dirty splotches of mud. Unfortunately, we're probably way too far along now for any changes to be made in production. On the bright side, though, these "weathered" paint apps solve on problem with collecting Transformers toys, finding the ones with the best paint jobs! Now, any little paint bleeds, errors, or imperfections can be written off as "battle damage."

[Dr. Caelus]

And after all this discussion of why Cybertronians need cockpits & driver's seat, as well as the idea of how much their war would of affected their economy & government, I want to calculate how much a real Cybertronain war would cost & how it would affect normal Cybertronian life. Because if it's anything like Siege & the G1 cartoon make it out to be, even when the war ends, there'd be no winners.

If you want an analogue to start with, you might research the Battle for Stalingrad in WWII - it has a lot of the earmarks of warfare on Cybertron - prolonged battle of attrition in an urban/industrial environment, with lots of CQC and small arms combat, and (on the soviet side) a very, very large portion of the populace with minimal combat experience called to arms against an especially ruthless, competent enemy.

Of course, if you're wanting to look at the larger impact on Cybertron, the obvious thing to look at is the U.S. Civil War, but outside of being a civil war with minimal involvement from outside of the conflict, there's really not many similarities.

[Wireless_Phantom]

And after all this discussion of why Cybertronians need cockpits & driver's seat, as well as the idea of how much their war would of affected their economy & government, I want to calculate how much a real Cybertronain war would cost & how it would affect normal Cybertronian life. Because if it's anything like Siege & the G1 cartoon make it out to be, even when the war ends, there'd be no winners.

If you want an analogue to start with, you might research the Battle for Stalingrad in WWII - it has a lot of the earmarks of warfare on Cybertron - prolonged battle of attrition in an urban/industrial environment, with lots of CQC and small arms combat, and (on the soviet side) a very, very large portion of the populace with minimal combat experience called to arms against an especially ruthless, competent enemy.

Of course, if you're wanting to look at the larger impact on Cybertron, the obvious thing to look at is the U.S. Civil War, but outside of being a civil war with minimal involvement from outside of the conflict, there's really not many similarities.

Considering the fact that, by the time the cartoon started, it seems like the planet was largely drained of energy. Despite this, however, a variety of Cybertronians lived on the planet and they didn't seem to be "starving" so there must have been some functioning means of Energon production. This is further supported by the fact that, during much of season three of the old cartoon there was a fairly large population residing on the planet so there must have been means to produce a fairly large quantity of energy, though there was still an energy shortage of some sort. The problem with this is that, if this is the case, the Decepticons shouldn't have had so much difficulty remaining on the planet or winning the war through a war of attrition. Therefore it would make sense if, during the course of the war, many Energon production facilities were destroyed by one side or the other to stop the other from having access to it, and the these were likely repaired or rebuilt by Shockwave during the first two seasons of the show where he spent a long period of not much else to do.

[starrhero]

And after all this discussion of why Cybertronians need cockpits & driver's seat, as well as the idea of how much their war would of affected their economy & government, I want to calculate how much a real Cybertronain war would cost & how it would affect normal Cybertronian life. Because if it's anything like Siege & the G1 cartoon make it out to be, even when the war ends, there'd be no winners.

If you want an analogue to start with, you might research the Battle for Stalingrad in WWII - it has a lot of the earmarks of warfare on Cybertron - prolonged battle of attrition in an urban/industrial environment, with lots of CQC and small arms combat, and (on the soviet side) a very, very large portion of the populace with minimal combat experience called to arms against an especially ruthless, competent enemy.

Of course, if you're wanting to look at the larger impact on Cybertron, the obvious thing to look at is the U.S. Civil War, but outside of being a civil war with minimal involvement from outside of the conflict, there's really not many similarities.

Considering the fact that, by the time the cartoon started, it seems like the planet was largely drained of energy. Despite this, however, a variety of Cybertronians lived on the planet and they didn't seem to be "starving" so there must have been some functioning means of Energon production. This is further supported by the fact that, during much of season three of the old cartoon there was a fairly large population residing on the planet so there must have been means to produce a fairly large quantity of energy, though there was still an energy shortage of some sort. The problem with this is that, if this is the case, the Decepticons shouldn't have had so much difficulty remaining on the planet or winning the war through a war of attrition. Therefore it would make sense if, during the course of the war, many Energon production facilities were destroyed by one side or the other to stop the other from having access to it, and the these were likely repaired or rebuilt by Shockwave during the first two seasons of the show where he spent a long period of not much else to do.

It is very possible the & were destroying Energon producing & refining factories, as well as building other stations & factories on nearby planets & moons, such as Moonbase 1 & 2. That would allow each faction to receive resources from an indirect source. Speaking of the Moonbases, we also have to consider the 20 year timeskip in the series between season 2 in 1985 and The Transformers: The Movie which took place in 2005. In that set of time, the were able to push the off of Cybertron & had full control, but the war was still waging, it's just that the had an advantage. Though I kind of don't want to go any farther from that and say the Battle of Autobot City was the end of the war with an Autobot victory. The main reason why is because... well, Unicron. I couldn't even fathom ANY event that was even slightly like the events of the battle against Unicron in the climax of the film.

Keeping things on track with the main topic of this thread, being the WfC Siege toyline, I wonder how certain things in the toyline could be used in a tactical advantage against the enemy. For example: How is Skytread's ability to split into two different vehicle modes any more beneficial to the ? Battletrap was at least two robots who basically powerlinked together to become more powerful, but I couldn't see much of an advantage with just two vehicles. And what of Weaponizers? Granted, more firepower is very good for anyone in a war like this, yet, if one of the parts of say, Cog, was damaged or lost, what would happen to Cog? He theoretically wouldn't be able to function properly anymore, especially if it was a part of his torso, & would have to be decommissioned.

Wow... we definitely went in depth with this.

[Sabrblade]

... No mention of the G1 S3 plot point that Transformers were originally created as nothing more than merchandise?

No, because in the end the mythological/magical 'Primus did it' origin won out in popularity in the mind of fans, writers and fans-who-became-writers.

The Quints origin still holds true for the English version of the cartoon, at least.

[no-one]

So I guess that Ultra Magnus is not only the "hammer guy" now but also the "butt flap guy"?

[Wireless_Phantom]

And after all this discussion of why Cybertronians need cockpits & driver's seat, as well as the idea of how much their war would of affected their economy & government, I want to calculate how much a real Cybertronain war would cost & how it would affect normal Cybertronian life. Because if it's anything like Siege & the G1 cartoon make it out to be, even when the war ends, there'd be no winners.

If you want an analogue to start with, you might research the Battle for Stalingrad in WWII - it has a lot of the earmarks of warfare on Cybertron - prolonged battle of attrition in an urban/industrial environment, with lots of CQC and small arms combat, and (on the soviet side) a very, very large portion of the populace with minimal combat experience called to arms against an especially ruthless, competent enemy.

Of course, if you're wanting to look at the larger impact on Cybertron, the obvious thing to look at is the U.S. Civil War, but outside of being a civil war with minimal involvement from outside of the conflict, there's really not many similarities.

Considering the fact that, by the time the cartoon started, it seems like the planet was largely drained of energy. Despite this, however, a variety of Cybertronians lived on the planet and they didn't seem to be "starving" so there must have been some functioning means of Energon production. This is further supported by the fact that, during much of season three of the old cartoon there was a fairly large population residing on the planet so there must have been means to produce a fairly large quantity of energy, though there was still an energy shortage of some sort. The problem with this is that, if this is the case, the Decepticons shouldn't have had so much difficulty remaining on the planet or winning the war through a war of attrition. Therefore it would make sense if, during the course of the war, many Energon production facilities were destroyed by one side or the other to stop the other from having access to it, and the these were likely repaired or rebuilt by Shockwave during the first two seasons of the show where he spent a long period of not much else to do.

It is very possible the & were destroying Energon producing & refining factories, as well as building other stations & factories on nearby planets & moons, such as Moonbase 1 & 2. That would allow each faction to receive resources from an indirect source. Speaking of the Moonbases, we also have to consider the 20 year timeskip in the series between season 2 in 1985 and The Transformers: The Movie which took place in 2005. In that set of time, the were able to push the off of Cybertron & had full control, but the war was still waging, it's just that the had an advantage. Though I kind of don't want to go any farther from that and say the Battle of Autobot City was the end of the war with an Autobot victory. The main reason why is because... well, Unicron. I couldn't even fathom ANY event that was even slightly like the events of the battle against Unicron in the climax of the film.

Keeping things on track with the main topic of this thread, being the WfC Siege toyline, I wonder how certain things in the toyline could be used in a tactical advantage against the enemy. For example: How is Skytread's ability to split into two different vehicle modes any more beneficial to the ? Battletrap was at least two robots who basically powerlinked together to become more powerful, but I couldn't see much of an advantage with just two vehicles. And what of Weaponizers? Granted, more firepower is very good for anyone in a war like this, yet, if one of the parts of say, Cog, was damaged or lost, what would happen to Cog? He theoretically wouldn't be able to function properly anymore, especially if it was a part of his torso, & would have to be decommissioned.

Wow... we definitely went in depth with this.

Skytread's ability to split is helpful in other ways compared to BattleTrap. While Battletrap has robot modes for his components, neither of them have weapons in the practical sense. Their vehicle modes are also relatively small and unarmed. I think this makes him more effective as a scout. Meanwhile Skytread's alternate modes, though lacking robot modes, are slightly larger and both have the capacity to use weapons, making him more useful in a combat scenario. Maybe that was why Battletrap has two robot modes. He was modified to have two separate robot forms at the cost of his weaponry due to down-sizing and power regulation, but was better for recon as a result, since he could act as two spies who always knew what the other could see without worry of transmitter signals being picked up. He might even function as part of a two bot group with Skytread who attack smaller installations on their own away from the front lines. Alternatively the two could both be early prototypes by Shockwave to create functioning combiners, using both of them to see if the two components lacking robot modes helps the combined form of the components function better or not.

In regards to Cog it's simple. Cog is made up of Gasket and Gromet, who are both drones controlled directly by Fortress Maximus (likewise with Brunt and Trypticon) and so if any of his parts are lost or damaged they can be replaced or repaired without much worry since Cog doesn't technically have a mind of his own.

[First-Aid]

So I guess that Ultra Magnus is not only the "hammer guy" now but also the "butt flap guy"?

OK, Now I want to watch Brendan Fraser's "George of the Jungle" movie....

[Wireless_Phantom]

So I guess that Ultra Magnus is not only the "hammer guy" now but also the "butt flap guy"?

OK, Now I want to watch Brendan Fraser's "George of the Jungle" movie....

It occurs to me we still haven't seen anyone use the guns on Magnus' legs.

[REMINATOR]

Anyway, as Siege goes, I'm probably going to swap Ultra Magnus' missiles even if they will restrict articulation, they just don't look right sticking up over his shoulders.

Emerje

The missile launcher being placed high up at the shoulder stack was the 1st thing that caught my eye. I'm glad...I'm not the only one who was bother by this. I will do the same thing once I get my WFC UM. I'll reverse the missile launcher just like the TTomy Prototype WFC.
Missile launcher at the level of the shoulder like G1:

WFCum1.PNG (459.17 KiB) Viewed 3079 times

Above the shoulder:

WFCum2.PNG (364.79 KiB) Viewed 3079 times