Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class

Thursday, October 8th, 2015 2:37AM CDT

Categories: Cartoon News, Toy News, Event News
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Much like for Titan Returns, after the preview night at NYCC 2015, Hasbro has uploaded the CG renderings and official stock photography for the upcoming Warrior, Legion and Minicon class toys from the Robots in Disguise line.

Included in the images mirrored below are Fracture, a different Megatronus than what we've already seen, Optimus Prime in 'Arctic Camo', Stealth Drift, Thunderhoof, Quillfire, Night Strike Bumblebee; Legion class Blizzard Strike Optimus Prime (totally different from Arctic Camo, we swear) and Ratchet; Minicons Windstrike and Blu. Check them out, and compare them to the galleries from the event right here!

Credit(s): Hasbro

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Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732506)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 8th, 2015 @ 3:14am CDT

Wow, those mock-ups are way more painted than the figures will ever be :roll:

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732508)
Posted by Ravage XK on October 8th, 2015 @ 3:15am CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:Wow, those mock-ups are way more painted than the figures will ever be

They are perfect CG renders I think.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732515)
Posted by Crosscheck on October 8th, 2015 @ 5:19am CDT

Definitely going to get those Mini-cons. I want to repaint the sword one and give him to Thundertron. I love smaller Transformers that become weapons for larger Transformers. The Warrior Decepticons are probably a buy too. Quillfire, Thunderhoof, and Fracture for sure.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732532)
Posted by Henry921 on October 8th, 2015 @ 6:54am CDT

So we get one Megatronus with face mask and one without?

Welp, I'm getting the Toys R Us one then. He looks so much cooler with the mask on.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732536)
Posted by RAR on October 8th, 2015 @ 7:20am CDT

So will Hasbro have done the "Fan mod" to Warrior Optimus then to allow his arm covers to swing back like they are in the render then ?
-----

Also I was wondering agout the small Minicon armour pieces a couple of thoughts...

1) Will the two new Minicons come with clip on armour pieces too ?
2) is the port size the same as the pin-point posts on the Titans Returns toys - suggesting you could decorate then Titan toys with the armour from the RID-15 Minicons if you wanted too ?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732541)
Posted by Cobotron on October 8th, 2015 @ 7:47am CDT

Those minicons are AWESOME!
So are those big Cons.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732550)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on October 8th, 2015 @ 8:32am CDT

Now We're talkin!! Minicons that become weapons!!!! YES!!!! And the cons look really cool too. Night Strike Bee doesn't look bad either

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732571)
Posted by Flashwave on October 8th, 2015 @ 9:05am CDT

I can't decide what I think about the black Minicon... as a weapon, it's a wha??? But he'se cool. In bot mode he reminds me of the igor guy from DoTM and his "weapon" sure looks like something that would be roaming Unicron's interiors.

All three cons look amazing, but I think I'll be skipping the Autobot repaints.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732572)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on October 8th, 2015 @ 9:09am CDT

Flashwave wrote:I can't decide what I think about the black Minicon... as a weapon, it's a wha??? But he'se cool. In bot mode he reminds me of the igor guy from DoTM and his "weapon" sure looks like something that would be roaming Unicron's interiors.

All three cons look amazing, but I think I'll be skipping the Autobot repaints.

I think he's supposed to be a wrecking ball fist with a face, so yeah!

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732575)
Posted by Gallifreyan Autobot on October 8th, 2015 @ 9:12am CDT

holy cow these looks amazing.... same for the Titan wars figures :APPLAUSE:

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732608)
Posted by Mkall on October 8th, 2015 @ 10:19am CDT

Fracture is a buy for me. Not so much anything else.

And CG Renders, seriously? Overly Photoshopped promo images not enough anymore?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732628)
Posted by Munkky on October 8th, 2015 @ 11:22am CDT

I wait almost a year for more Warrior Decepticons to keep Steeljaw company, and four come along at once! :lol:

I'll be getting all four of those Decepticons, though I am a bit sad that Legion Ratchet is a repaint, that implies that Ratchet won't be in the Robots in Disguise show.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732629)
Posted by ScottyP on October 8th, 2015 @ 11:23am CDT

Mkall wrote:And CG Renders, seriously? Overly Photoshopped promo images not enough anymore?

Started back at Toy Fair. They eventually get replaced by photoshoped production images, but it takes awhile. Not sure how much they use pro-painters like Etips One these days, as the stuff on the show floor is certainly not done up by a pro.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732648)
Posted by deathdrive on October 8th, 2015 @ 1:01pm CDT

Megatronus I really would love him to just have the fask mask on, simply because I can pretend hes a new character. Quillfire shall be henceforth known as trollface and the weaponmaster gimmick should have been what minicons were about from the beginning of this line.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732649)
Posted by DedicatedGhostArt on October 8th, 2015 @ 1:07pm CDT

I'm sorry if people have already stated this, but when I first looked at Quilfire's alt mode, I thought he was a repaint of a TF Prime Bulkhead deluxe. HE LOOKS JUST LIKE BULKHEAD IT'S AMAZING.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732659)
Posted by Flashwave on October 8th, 2015 @ 1:40pm CDT

SillySpringer wrote:I'm sorry if people have already stated this, but when I first looked at Quilfire's alt mode, I thought he was a repaint of a TF Prime Bulkhead deluxe. HE LOOKS JUST LIKE BULKHEAD IT'S AMAZING.

When word came from "On High" that some old faces in TF Prime (which coincidentally would coincide with Prime Wars...) would crop up in Season 2, and Quilfire's general build was revealed, a lot of people speculated Bulkhead to be one of the returning cast, since it would be an easy digital reshell to give the Quillfire model a new head and ditch the back spikes.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732730)
Posted by Sabrblade on October 8th, 2015 @ 8:54pm CDT

SillySpringer wrote:I'm sorry if people have already stated this, but when I first looked at Quilfire's alt mode, I thought he was a repaint of a TF Prime Bulkhead deluxe. HE LOOKS JUST LIKE BULKHEAD IT'S AMAZING.

Not surprising since he looked like that in the show.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732853)
Posted by Whifflefire on October 9th, 2015 @ 5:48am CDT

I am very pleasantly surprised by Quillfire, he looks way cooler than I thought he could. And woohoo for Thunderhoof and Fracture!

http://static.seibertron.com/images/toy ... 762_m4.jpg

FACE ME

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1732865)
Posted by psj333 on October 9th, 2015 @ 7:04am CDT

At the NYCC 2015, Hasbro did mentioned about Generations, RID2015, and Rescue Bots. But last night, it seemed to be that, they only seemed to focus on Generations that day. Does that they will never present RID2015, and Rescue Bots for this event? Or they will still present RID2015 and Rescue Bots, but just separate days instead of one altogether? Is that the main reason why other characters like Windblade and Clampdown still haven't show up yet, even though Hasbro have already released in image of what Clampdown do look like in both modes?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733078)
Posted by RAR on October 9th, 2015 @ 4:00pm CDT

Though not a perfect fit I'd not mind a Deluxe Bulkhead made out of Quillfire if feasible. as at least it would be likely to have a proper head unlike that odd one the Beast Hunters version has.

(Did anyone ever make a suitable replacement for that head ?) even the silly one with 'Viking horns' on was better than the Deluxe had.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733079)
Posted by william-james88 on October 9th, 2015 @ 4:03pm CDT

A side to side comparison of the 2 warrior megatrons.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733086)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 9th, 2015 @ 4:53pm CDT

william-james88 wrote:A side to side comparison of the 2 warrior megatrons.

Woah, so wait, are we actually getting two verisons of him? Which one is exclusive to tru? the one with the dumb face, or the one with the epic mask?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733094)
Posted by chuckdawg1999 on October 9th, 2015 @ 5:44pm CDT

And repaints aplenty for all. If, IF that Prime can fold the truck kibble back I might be interested in picking it up, on sale. The new molds are all a grab by the by.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733107)
Posted by psj333 on October 9th, 2015 @ 7:44pm CDT

During the preview night, Hasbro showed us newest RID2015 toys, especially Quillfire on the table. They promised there will be more on the way immediately after that. But so far, they still haven't show us more of them, including, Windblade, Clampdown, and Springload, and well as toys from Rescue Bots. Hasbro said that they are going to view each of those three brands separately. But so far, they only covered the Generation brand to date. Will they ever present these toys from RID2015 and Rescue Bots in the following day or so?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733115)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 9th, 2015 @ 8:51pm CDT

psj333 wrote:During the preview night, Hasbro showed us newest RID2015 toys, especially Quillfire on the table. They promised there will be more on the way immediately after that. But so far, they still haven't show us more of them, including, Windblade, Clampdown, and Springload, and well as toys from Rescue Bots. Hasbro said that they are going to view each of those three brands separately. But so far, they only covered the Generation brand to date. Will they ever present these toys from RID2015 and Rescue Bots in the following day or so?

Probably not, because they have plenty of toy shows left to introduce new stuff... they've gotta pace themselves you know >:oP

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733143)
Posted by william-james88 on October 9th, 2015 @ 10:23pm CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:
psj333 wrote:During the preview night, Hasbro showed us newest RID2015 toys, especially Quillfire on the table. They promised there will be more on the way immediately after that. But so far, they still haven't show us more of them, including, Windblade, Clampdown, and Springload, and well as toys from Rescue Bots. Hasbro said that they are going to view each of those three brands separately. But so far, they only covered the Generation brand to date. Will they ever present these toys from RID2015 and Rescue Bots in the following day or so?

Probably not, because they have plenty of toy shows left to introduce new stuff... they've gotta pace themselves you know

And for the record, psj333, they did techinically give us more reveals. Those 2 minicons were not part of the preview night and were revealed after.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733173)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on October 10th, 2015 @ 12:26am CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:
william-james88 wrote:A side to side comparison of the 2 warrior megatrons.

Woah, so wait, are we actually getting two verisons of him? Which one is exclusive to tru? the one with the dumb face, or the one with the epic mask?

Facemask is the TRU exclusive, the one I shall be hunting down

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733183)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 10th, 2015 @ 12:51am CDT

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:
Hellscream9999 wrote:
william-james88 wrote:A side to side comparison of the 2 warrior megatrons.

Woah, so wait, are we actually getting two verisons of him? Which one is exclusive to tru? the one with the dumb face, or the one with the epic mask?

Facemask is the TRU exclusive, the one I shall be hunting down

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733190)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on October 10th, 2015 @ 1:33am CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:
D-Maximus_Prime wrote:
Hellscream9999 wrote:
william-james88 wrote:A side to side comparison of the 2 warrior megatrons.

Woah, so wait, are we actually getting two verisons of him? Which one is exclusive to tru? the one with the dumb face, or the one with the epic mask?

Facemask is the TRU exclusive, the one I shall be hunting down

Plus to me he seems to have a better color scheme and the facemask works better since he is going into battle

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733201)
Posted by Stuartmaximus on October 10th, 2015 @ 2:48am CDT

Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733221)
Posted by Sabrblade on October 10th, 2015 @ 5:50am CDT

Stuartmaximus wrote:Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

There's already the big Mega 5-Step figure that has next to no articulation. 'Tis been available at TRU for a good while now.

Clash of the Transformers Megatronus Gallery

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733268)
Posted by RAR on October 10th, 2015 @ 9:11am CDT

Buy both Megatronus and you can give him a long spear or a couple of swords then - which might be neat as well as having the different faces.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733306)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 10th, 2015 @ 11:30am CDT

Stuartmaximus wrote:Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

Well, there is no 'voyager' or 'leader' classes, so, NO >:oP

Best you can hope for is a TT exclusive leader class figure to go with their o/p's.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733686)
Posted by X3ROhour on October 11th, 2015 @ 10:03pm CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:
Stuartmaximus wrote:Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

Well, there is no 'voyager' or 'leader' classes, so, NO

Best you can hope for is a TT exclusive leader class figure to go with their o/p's.

weak sauce

(:|

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733694)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 11th, 2015 @ 10:14pm CDT

Z3ROhour wrote:
Hellscream9999 wrote:
Stuartmaximus wrote:Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

Well, there is no 'voyager' or 'leader' classes, so, NO

Best you can hope for is a TT exclusive leader class figure to go with their o/p's.

weak sauce

Well, we've known that, hasbro has no intentions of releasing non-simplified vesions of figures at higher price points, but, yeah, it is very weak sauce >:oP

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733712)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on October 11th, 2015 @ 11:06pm CDT

Hellscream9999 wrote:
Z3ROhour wrote:
Hellscream9999 wrote:
Stuartmaximus wrote:Btw anyone know if we're getting a bigger version of Megatronus? I know we're getting Legion & Warrior Class ones

Well, there is no 'voyager' or 'leader' classes, so, NO

Best you can hope for is a TT exclusive leader class figure to go with their o/p's.

weak sauce

Well, we've known that, hasbro has no intentions of releasing non-simplified vesions of figures at higher price points, but, yeah, it is very weak sauce

Unfortunately it happens.

.....Just had some pretty strong sauce though. Those who know what a Quaker Steak and Lube with Triple atomic wings would understand :lol:

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733727)
Posted by william-james88 on October 12th, 2015 @ 12:14am CDT

Also he presentation once again reaffirmed that their toy strategy is to appeal to 3 different groups and they only include the collector group in the Generations line. But jokes on them I think many of these warriors are actually pretty sweet for collectors (with takara deco of course).

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733765)
Posted by RAR on October 12th, 2015 @ 4:02am CDT

Some of the Warriors are fine, but yes I agree they seem to intentionally or otherwise (as they also do with Rescue Bots) exclude the potnetial interest of Adult fans.

Perhaps one day when Rescue Bots is 10 year or 15 years old the Rescue Bot team might get articulated normal Deluxes to appeal to that market.

I find the lack of RID-15/16 Voyagers a bit frustrating especially when we just finished with a "Generations" theme that included a Beast Wars homage putting a couple of RID-15 Voyagers in the 'Generations' mix doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Also here is a silly questions why isn't there a Transformers Prime Unicron made as a Titan PVC or a 5 Step Transformer or even just a large figure that talks and has removable gauntlets. even if it's branded as RID-15/16 having something that doesn't Transform makes sense to me for it to be in the kids end of the market where a lack of Transformation is excusable. otherwise the only way Prime Unicron might get a toy is some 300.00+ premium release out of Japan (like Mega Zarak was).

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733832)
Posted by Sabrblade on October 12th, 2015 @ 11:12am CDT

RAR wrote:Also here is a silly questions why isn't there a Transformers Prime Unicron made as a Titan PVC or a 5 Step Transformer or even just a large figure that talks and has removable gauntlets. even if it's branded as RID-15/16 having something that doesn't Transform makes sense to me for it to be in the kids end of the market where a lack of Transformation is excusable. otherwise the only way Prime Unicron might get a toy is some 300.00+ premium release out of Japan (like Mega Zarak was).

Unicron isn't in RID, so it wouldn't make sense to make a toy for someone the show doesn't advertise. And Unicron was only in season 1 of Prime, so by the time the toy of him had been made and released in Japan, his appearance had already come and gone to the point that it wouldn't have made sense to release a Prime Unicron in Hasbro's market (this was well before Predacons Rising was even a thing, as that hadn't been conceived until after the show was done).

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733869)
Posted by Stuartmaximus on October 12th, 2015 @ 1:07pm CDT

Sabrblade wrote:so it wouldn't make sense to make a toy for someone the show doesn't advertise

Riiiiiiiiiiight............coz it's not as if there hasn't been toys made of characters that haven't appeared the various shows & movies before! is it? mmmmm

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733894)
Posted by Sabrblade on October 12th, 2015 @ 2:00pm CDT

Stuartmaximus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:so it wouldn't make sense to make a toy for someone the show doesn't advertise

Riiiiiiiiiiight............coz it's not as if there hasn't been toys made of characters that haven't appeared the various shows & movies before! is it? mmmmm

If we were talking about a small, inexpensive figure you'd have a point, but the subject at hand is a big thing. And big things tend to be reserved for stuff that Hasbro really wants to showcase at the opportune moments. Unicron is not a big deal right now, nor was he at the time following his defeat in Prime's season 1 finale, so his chances of getting a big Hasbro toy release both then and now seem highly unlikely.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733901)
Posted by Stuartmaximus on October 12th, 2015 @ 2:14pm CDT

Sabrblade wrote:but the subject at hand is a big thing

You have a point

But

Remember

Unicron hasn't always been big

Z.jpg

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733925)
Posted by Sabrblade on October 12th, 2015 @ 3:59pm CDT

Stuartmaximus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:but the subject at hand is a big thing

You have a point

But

Remember

Unicron hasn't always been big

Z.jpg

RAR was speaking of a big Unicron toy. That was the subject at hand.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733928)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 12th, 2015 @ 4:06pm CDT

Stuartmaximus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:so it wouldn't make sense to make a toy for someone the show doesn't advertise

Riiiiiiiiiiight............coz it's not as if there hasn't been toys made of characters that haven't appeared the various shows & movies before! is it? mmmmm

So, you mean, like all the beast hunter predacons >:oP

Cuz, I know they weren't in that c$%k-teasing waste of a season :roll:

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1733944)
Posted by Cobotron on October 12th, 2015 @ 5:01pm CDT

language, please?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1734060)
Posted by william-james88 on October 13th, 2015 @ 8:59am CDT

In any case, a Prime Unicron toy does exist already anyways, I dont see the point in bringing him up again.

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1734316)
Posted by RAR on October 15th, 2015 @ 4:30pm CDT

Maybe I just like Orange ?

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1734371)
Posted by william-james88 on October 15th, 2015 @ 7:56pm CDT

RAR wrote:Maybe I just like Orange ?

Well then my friend, Drift was recoloured just for you

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1734383)
Posted by william-james88 on October 15th, 2015 @ 8:53pm CDT

IJK Productions has a video review up for the recently revealed (and simultaneously found at retail) figure of Warrior Megatronus from the Clash of Transformers subline, exclusive at Toysrus. This figure is different than the mainline Megatronus figure since it wears a mask. Enjoy!

IJK wrote:I figured that I share my video review of the RiD Warrior Class Megatronus (Clash of the Transformers ver.) with you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFEPG9c5ww

IJK

Re: Official Stock Images (CG) - New Transformers Robots in Disguise Warrior, Legion and Minicon Class (1734387)
Posted by Hellscream9999 on October 15th, 2015 @ 9:01pm CDT

SEE, this is how you make a functional tank turret without making the shoulders ugly as H#LL

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